No, Ma'am

[nightengalesknd]

This is the most surprising linguistic phenomenon I have encountered since moving to the South. I’m not talking about the phenomenon of calling me “Ma’am,” which happened rarely in Philadelphia and West Virginia, and frequently here in South Carolina. That’s something I expect at the grocery store and appreciate because I’m finally a “Ma’am” rather than a “Miss,” and something I don’t expect from my patients’ families but get anyway and it does make me vaguely uncomfortable but doesn’t surprise me. Many families answer my close-ended questions with “Yes, Ma’am” and “No, Ma’am” (and my male colleagues with “Yes, Sir” and “No, Sir.” It makes me more uncomfortable when the speaker is non-white, presumably because I worry a lot about the baggage in the South in terms of who historically called whom Sir and Ma’am, piled on top of the perceived difference in status between a physician and many parents. But that’s me, and my comfort, and all I can think to do about it is to treat my families with equal respect, which is something I should be doing anyway.

No, what surprises me are the number of parents who say “No Sir” and “No Ma’am” TO their children, generally very young children. The 18 month old who has discovered how to open the trashcan and is reaching in is whisked away by her father, saying “No, Ma’am! No, Ma’am! Dirty!” The two year old is firmly told, “No, Sir! Do not bite!” by his mother as she removes his mouth from her arm. And so on, with the toddler who is reaching for the door handle or light switch, and the preschooler who is trying to eat crayons. There doesn’t seem to be any racial distribution to the use of “sir” and “ma’am” towards their children, although I suspect there is a socioeconomic one. And I’ve never heard any adult say “Yes, Sir” or “Yes, Ma’am” to a child.

One language milestone we measure in young children is their ability to understand the word “no.” Typically, by around a year, most babies will understand “no” when spoken by a parent, and will at least momentarily pause before resuming a crawling pursuit of an electric cord or a fast grab at mama’s earrings. Understanding “no,” and the word “no” being an actual deterrent of behavior are two separate things, but it occurs to me that neither develops if a baby never hears “No!” couple with actions that demonstrates that the adult wants an action to stop.

Some of our kids hear “no!” a lot, especially some of our children with unusually active behaviors for their age, and I’ve worked with older children who I suspect are told “no” ten times more often than they are told anything else, let alone “yes” or words of praise. “No” is likely to lose effectiveness under such circumstances, and it’s a challenge, although a worthwhile one, for parents, doctors and teachers to learn to say “Walk in the hallway” rather than “No running!”

But some of our children don’t seem to be hearing “No!” at all. I asked one father if his toddler understood “no,” and he said he wasn’t sure. But, he continued, she definitely understood “No, Ma’am!” She clearly responded to the sharp tone behind the words used by her parents, and it was brought out as a verbal marker of “I mean it!” following some general ineffectual “no’s” called from the other side of the room. I decided that she met that milestone, and that whoever wrote the language chart had never lived in South Carolina.

Has anyone else, in the American South or otherwise, encountered the use of “sir” and “ma’am” directed from adults to children? Is it part of an underlying philosophy that a bald “yes” or “no” is so inherently rude that they should not be used or modeled at any cost? (And by extension, am I being so unthinkably rude myself by saying plainly “yes” and “no” that only my clear Yankee accent excuses me as ignorant rather than arrogant?) Or is it merely a way of applying gradations to the negative, from “no” to “No!” to “No Ma’am!” until the child knows that time-out (or worse) will inevitably follow?

Comments

[mst3kforall.livejournal.com]

I do not remember whether my parents "No, Ma'am"ed me or not.

But, reading your description, it absolutely felt almost like home to me -- not that it would be natural for me to do it, but that it was absolutely familiar, from longer ago than I can remember.

My sense of it is that it is nought to do with politeness, but is a mild form of rebuke, and primarily the "I'm serious" which you mention. It is to get attention, and it does. You know that swift action is following if you don't pay attention. Also, for me it carries strong connotations of seriousness of the act you (as a kid) are about to do.

I think, from my reaction, that I must have heard this frequently as a child, from someone.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

Interesting. . . where, geographically, would that have been?

[mst3kforall.livejournal.com]

I grew up in California, my mom was from Chicago (I used to have a Chicago dialect), my dad grew up lots of places but I think primarily around Philly. When I was little, a woman I loved named Mary used to babysit me; maybe she said it(?)

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

Either that or this phenomenon extends well beyond the south. . .

[songblaze.livejournal.com]

I grew up in Cali too and am not at all familiar with this dialectic phenomenon, so I'm guessing it's showing up because of someone whose origins were in the south.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

That would be my guess as well. Most of the families I encounter are definitely from the South. I sound like such a Yankee here in SC!

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

I have seen this in the South; it seems to be both "yes, I'm serious now," and also, often, a "I am secretly amused by you but I want to sound as if I am very serious" thing. (I can't tell you which bits of the south, just that it sounds familiar.)

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

Fascinating combination of thoughts.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

When I was a kid, and my mom was /actually/ mad at me, she said, "Katie!"

When she was sorta-mad but also amused, she used my full name, including middle name. (Katharine Eastman Martin!)

The difference was obvious.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I have never in my life been yelled at, lectured or otherwise addressed by full name by either of my parents (which is not to imply that I was not yelled at, lectured or otherwise sternly addressed.) They always used my nickname, which was what everyone called me until I was eight and what they still call me now no matter what mood they are in. The only time I can think of they ever even used my full first name was joking calling me Firstname Middlename No No No, when I was three or four and frequently in a negative mood. I always wonder why my parents gave me a perfectly good, if unusual, first name, a perfectly good middle name, and then refuse to use either of them.

[juliansinger.livejournal.com]

That there's a good question.

(Anyway, I was only relating that bit because it's a similar thing to the "no ma'am" directed at kids, only...completely different.)

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I think they are similar in a way - a verbal marker used to adress children who are misbehaving versus the way they are adressed otherwise. I had been wondering if "No, ma'am" was the step between "no" and full name in some families.

You know, I tell people I use my linguistics class in my practice of medicine more than my molecular biology classes, and I get the impression they generally don't believe me. But it's true.

[songblaze.livejournal.com]

I never got full-name address from my parents either, under any circumstances.

[chicleeblair.livejournal.com]

I'm from North Florida aka Lower Alabama and, yeah, it sounds familiar. With little-little ones, especially the girls, it's a bit "you are absolutely precious but should not be doing that" and a bit "no, absolutely not". It also possibly has something to do with the weird adult-izing of children leftover from the old south, habit, and teaching them to do it.

It's the south, nothing is ACTUALLY simple.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

Evidently I need a Northern/Southern translator - I consider myself fortunate that at least I knew about "bless your heart" before I moved here!

[chicleeblair.livejournal.com]

I'm not entirely sure what it says that my reaction to that is oh bless her heart

I have gotten MORE southern the further north I've gone....

In all seriousness, I can translate if you need. just drop me a line :D

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

And I become more of a Yankee the farther I move from NY. Interestingly, this holds true both farther north into New England, west into the Mid West AND South!

[plasticsturgeon.livejournal.com]

Can you ask them?

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I may start by asking some of the doctors, nurses and psychologists who are A) local and B) have kids.

[gallian.livejournal.com]

All I can tell you is that my father didn't use it. Or at least, it doesn't sound familiar to me. I can (mentally) hear my southern relatives calling children "child" but not "ma'am" or "sir." In fact, I can't mentally hear anyone using "ma'am" except hired help (and yes, that was the correct term in the place and time.) (Reference point, Atlanta, GA)

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I am beginning to suspect it's not so much a geographic thing (besides generally Southish) as a socioeconomic one. Must collect data. . .

[shrewreader.livejournal.com]

This one I can answer -- it's not. I've heard it across socioeconomic strata - both from my housemate to dogs / cats / nieces / nephews / time-share children and from my students to their offspring / nieces / nephews / time-share children. I've also heard it at every level in between.

By far and away, the most common marker I've heard is one of emphasis.

[jjlv64.livejournal.com]

funny that you mention this. i work for head start (so 3 and 4 year olds) and i have frequently found myself "yes ma'am" and "no sir"'ing them. i don't know why. i don't know when it started or where it came from. i know that i DON'T do it when i'm upset with them. Maybe this is some sort of weird carry over from my west virginia days (although i dont remembe rthis being done there)? possibly i am subconsciously trying to ingrain the use of "yes ma'am" and "no ma'am" in their heads?

Interestingly i've noticed that although spanish tends to be a more formal and respectful language (by this i mean they are more flowery and gentle with the way they say things and have usted vs. tu [more formal vs less formal] ways to address people) the spanish speaking children are more likely to call their teacher only by their first name (as opposed to ms/miss whoever)... or to simply call her "teacher."

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I used to call some of my students "sir" somewhat affectionately - not saying "no sir" to them, but more like conferring knighthood (Sir Johnny, will you start dinner?) sort of thing. The girl version would have been Lady, not ma'am. I've been in settings where the kids called the adults Miss/Mrs/Ms/Mr Lastname, where they called us by our first names, where they called us Aunt/Uncle Firstname, and Miss/Mrs/Ms/Mr Firstname. Now I tend to call myself Dr. Firstname when talking to the younger kids (OK, Dr. Nightengale's going to listen to your heart!) Most of my patients don't call me anything, which is probably why they're my patients.

I don't think I ever heard this in WV, certainly not that I noticed. (The thing I noticed in WV was saying "needs done.") Occasionally a parent, usually a father, would say "yes ma'am" "no, ma'am" in answering my questions, We didn't have that many African American families in WV, but when we did, the fathers generally called me ma'am.

The spanish speaking families I've encountered so far, we've generally had an interpreter, and the kids haven't been old enough to talk!

[jjlv64.livejournal.com]

i always hated "needs done" (and "needs washed/fixed/cleaned/cooked"... you get the point) it just grated on my ears.

I dont remember serving any African American families in WV either... although i did serve a TON of arab ones. Most of the spanish speaking families here i need an interpreter to talk to the parents, but the kids catch on to english quickly. "Yes Ma'am" just kind of... seemed west virginain?

when i "yes ma'am" the kids its usually in response to "Miss Laura?" not usually to something like "Can i go to the bathroom?"

[mydocuments.livejournal.com]

I've heard some parents say ma'am and sir to their children, but usually in a scolding manner. What really shocks me is that you were never ma'am'd in WV. I'm wondering if the folks you worked with were raised in a barn. I ma'am and sir ALL of my elders and ALL of my professional superiors unless they request otherwise.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

Maybe Morgantown culture is different than Charleston? Over half our residents were non-local and a good handful were international grads. Now I'm trying to think back through the blur that was my month at the CAMC women and children's ER, but it is too much of a blur.

I did get "ma'am" from a few parents, specifically from African-American fathers, but not that I can think of at all from med students, clerks, nurses or what have you, and I didn't hear the other residents (including native WVians) calling the attendings Sir and Ma'am except affectionately. Most people who weren't patients called the residents by our first names. We did call the attendings Dr unless specifically asked otherwise.

[magidnaywards.livejournal.com]

My 4th grade teacher was from Columbia, South Carolina. She told us you should always use sir or ma'am when talking to adults. I guess if adults use it on kids, the kids are more likely to turn around and use it back. People don't do this in North Carolina though, and we are only an hour away!

I don't make it to Greenville much, but I did get engaged there. Anyway, I am jealous of Greenville because your city has awesome awesome awesome slam poetry on a weekly basis. Not only do you have more frequent poetry slams than Asheville, you also have more and better slam poets than Asheville. (not to pick on Asheville's slam poets, they are wonderful people, but the same three people always win Asheville's poetry slams).

http://www.witsendpoetry.com/

Not sure if you are in to poetry, but I figure anyone who is in to sci fi should be in to poetry.

Anyway, you should drop me a line if you are ever in the Asheville area. We don't seem to have a single kosher deli, but we do have lots of grocery stores that (just barely) pass the matzo test. and one or two that sell (albeit dubious-looking) frozen kosher meat. and we have a lot of vegetarian restaurants.

[nightengalesknd.livejournal.com]

I've been in NC a few times, although never in Asheville, and I get the impression that NC and SC are linguistically related but not the same. (I've been to the Outer Banks, Wake Forrest, and very very briefly, Duke. And I'm going to Chapel Hill next month, also briefly.)

The problem I have with Ashville is that I used to have a student from there. They say teachers have trouble naming their own children because they associated nearly every name with some unruly student. As a boarding school teacher, I have similar associations with the places my kids came from! NY and DC got off free because I already knew those cities, but I'll never think of Ashville, Louisville KY or Las Vegas neutrally again!

[magidnaywards.livejournal.com]

Yeah we're a wild bunch. :)

[chem-nerd.livejournal.com]

The 'no, ma'am' and 'no, sir' are very much a regional thing. I never got it much growing up in NC, both because my parents were from the Midwest, and because Ft. Bragg is a military town and we get everybody. On the other hand, after spending 20 years in Goose Creek, SC - just outside of Charleston - I saw my uncle (a well-educated and successful pastor) say 'no, sir!' not only to his son when my cousin was being impossible, but to his dog - said dog had some dominance issues and was being overly aggressive. It's an 'I REALLY mean it' sort of emphasizer.

As for addressing you as ma'am, nah, it's probably not a status thing. Many people raised in the deep south do that with everybody in public, regardless of color or position. At most, it might be a nod of respect for your expertise in the medical field. Same way a mechanic might address a teacher as 'sir' when said teacher is explaining some weird rule of grammar, only to have the teacher turn around and address the mechanic as 'ma'am' while she's explaining exactly what was wrong with the teacher's transmission system.